New Classic catagory?

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mcrewsz71
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by mcrewsz71 » Sun May 15, 2016 7:23 pm

I fished the classic for the first time this year and while I didn't finish too well I had a blast!

Sure a couple of the guys who won were "professionals" in some eyes, but it is a tournament. It just makes me want to improve and try new things that get me out of my comfort zone!

It was an awesome time for me and my group and I'm glad it was for a great cause! I will be back next year with the knowledge I pick up from fishing the remainder of the year.

Goliath was beat by David.

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JaxBeachBrian
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by JaxBeachBrian » Sun May 15, 2016 7:48 pm

I've been kayak fishing less than a year, and this was my first Classic. I caught a single flounder, and was pleased I didn't get skunked. So I'm your basic rank noob offering my $0.02:

@ Jud, Jessica, Craig, and everyone else who worked and donated stuff: Thanks for making my first tournament a fun experience.

Now...I don't know that much about fishing, but I do know a thing or ten about statistics. I make my living with data and stats. Here's what I think:

1) on a pro class - come up with some definitions and gather some data. How many "pro" anglers were really there? I'm not in favor of creating a whole other class because a handful of "pros" tend to do well.

2) Analyze the data you have in hand from all the fish caught yesterday. (I'm offering my help) with a little follow up work, we should be able to discern whether there is a statistically significant difference between species caught in one type of location to another...and start to explore ways of handicapping....kinda like golfers and courses. Again, I'm volunteering to help...

3) if you're thinking of a different class...how about a Grand Slam? Two of each...

As for the guy who won the Slam...I don't know much about him...but he spends a lot of time on the water, paddled 11 miles AND schlepped his yak across the dam to finish the drill. Reminds me from a line in a movie...

"Isn't it funny how the harder I work, the luckier we get?"

Kudos to the winners. I didn't get skunked.

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Bigshow69fl
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by Bigshow69fl » Sun May 15, 2016 8:00 pm

JaxBeachBrian wrote:I've been kayak fishing less than a year, and this was my first Classic. I caught a single flounder, and was pleased I didn't get skunked. So I'm your basic rank noob offering my $0.02:

@ Jud, Jessica, Craig, and everyone else who worked and donated stuff: Thanks for making my first tournament a fun experience.

Now...I don't know that much about fishing, but I do know a thing or ten about statistics. I make my living with data and stats. Here's what I think:

1) on a pro class - come up with some definitions and gather some data. How many "pro" anglers were really there? I'm not in favor of creating a whole other class because a handful of "pros" tend to do well.

2) Analyze the data you have in hand from all the fish caught yesterday. (I'm offering my help) with a little follow up work, we should be able to discern whether there is a statistically significant difference between species caught in one type of location to another...and start to explore ways of handicapping....kinda like golfers and courses. Again, I'm volunteering to help...

3) if you're thinking of a different class...how about a Grand Slam? Two of each...

As for the guy who won the Slam...I don't know much about him...but he spends a lot of time on the water, paddled 11 miles AND schlepped his yak across the dam to finish the drill. Reminds me from a line in a movie...

"Isn't it funny how the harder I work, the luckier we get?"

Kudos to the winners. I didn't get skunked.
I like the Grand Slam idea!!
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KayakMike
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by KayakMike » Sun May 15, 2016 8:24 pm

While this thread is somewhat interesting, nothing will be changed. This formula has worked for many years. It is tested and proven to be the most successful and premier event in kayak fishing for many years.

The Classic is not about determining the "best" angler at all. It is about having a high-quality event in a recreational format that is a charity benefit and enables the most folks to have a great time. Everyone who participates is a WINNER. The charities who benefit are WINNERS. The sponsors are WINNERS.

There are plenty of events for the "semi pro" or "avid" angler who wants or needs to be called the "best". That is not the purpose of the Classic. To the extent that some feel they are the best by winning the Classic since it has a large field, whatever.

"More divisions" is more work and a bigger pain to administer - while the discussion is fine, it seems to have failed to consider the registration and scoring implications for those that actually execute the event. More specialized categories, divisions, or special prizes make the complexity and time for scoring significantly higher. Same for more rules - just like life they lead to less freedom, more regulations, and less fun ;)

For example, this year the Fly Slam was brought back after several years of hiatus. It went away because of the significant extra scoring burden, lack of significant participation, and the idea that it was unfair to dedicate a large prize such as a kayak to a tiny minority, 10-20 folks out of 360. It came back because of the generosity of Black Fly and Diablo who would only participate as sponsors if there was a full Fly division, and Jessica and Jud's willingness to shoulder the additional work.

On the point of a "professional" category, or a "grand slam", if you want those who fish for a living, or are sponsored anglers, or just those who fish more than you so they know where the fish are to be separated, banned, or put in a "special" division, you obviously have not considered exactly how to draw the rules and enforce the boundaries, which in fact cannot really be enforced at all. It has always been a wise policy to not have rules you cannot enforce. Similarly, that is also why the Classic is structured so you can actually win more in a raffle than you do for a big fish. Rich prizes incentivize cheating - we keep the prizes moderate for a reason.

Let's not "fix" that which is not "broken".
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by yooper » Sun May 15, 2016 8:50 pm

well said

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Sure Catch
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by Sure Catch » Sun May 15, 2016 9:02 pm

Last comment and it all yalls, there are no "PRO'S" in this tournament.. Maybe some folks fish more than others but no pro's at all.. Again don't let the jerseys or Prostaff fool you... I have won the Classic twice and this year was my best year and it was because I was able to fish with my 10yr old son.. Congrats to the winners and everyone for making it great
Hustle in silence, let your success make the noise!!
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by DaveInYak » Sun May 15, 2016 9:39 pm

Well said Mike! Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this for so many years to allow us all to have such a great time to fish together and then talk about it afterwards.

Eddie I'm right with ya on every level....except fishing lol. Making it easy means I may as well tell my 7, 16, and 19 year old boys that everyone should get something. If something in life is easy it's normally not worth the effort to me.

This event is for CHARITY...and fun and should definitely always stay as such.

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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by HoosierPaddler » Mon May 16, 2016 9:41 am

I have always been opposed to allowing bull reds to count. In the beginning we never contemplated having a size limit. What we did do was make the jetties off limits so people wouldn't go out there fishing for bull reds. Back then no one I knew fished for bull reds in the river out of a kayak. Still today I do not know anyone who goes out fishing for them unless it is tourney day. It is not what we do as a community. I still don't know why if it is all about size, why we put the jetties off limits. If it is about stepping up your game, let them step up to the ocean also, whats the big deal? Take a look at the winners from the first year until now. Can you see the trend? It use to be that everyone had a shot at catching a a 30-35 inch red fish to win the big red competition, now that is not the case. Again Look at the numbers. I really believe it is hurting this tourney. I spoke with several of my friends I have known here for sometime and the opinion we shared was that when the river bull reds were introduced it took something from this tourney. I have talked with people who do fish for them on tourney day and they have told me that when they catch one, they have to paddle to shore get out and take a picture of the fish. I wonder what the FWC's position on this would be. I would think that they would frown upon it, but maybe not IDK. I do not know the answer, but I can see the problem. I think a healthy discussion on this issue is needed and I believe and change is in order. Hopefully we will get both. It is going to be a very interesting year coming up for this tourney.
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Kahuna13
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by Kahuna13 » Mon May 16, 2016 9:58 am

JR wrote:It is definitely something we are considering for next year. Just have to figure out how to structure something like that. But just know...we hear you.

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While this thread is somewhat interesting, nothing will be changed. This formula has worked for many years. It is tested and proven to be the most successful and premier event in kayak fishing for many years.

:scratch:

Doesn't sound like there is any "healthy discussion" going on at the top.....

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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by gumby » Mon May 16, 2016 10:05 am

I am in 100% agreement with SureCatch and here is why....I have lived in St. Augustine for almost 5 years. I fish, maybe 2 -3 times a month, if i get lucky. I have fished in this tournament for 3 years.
Year 1: 39th place (321 site); won a life jacket in the raffle
Year 2: 11th place (7th on 321 site) and 2nd in spot tourny; won an awesome net, and $50 GC to Dicks Sporting Goods.
Year 3....Nothing, I caught a shark and an oyster bed; won some lures from Unfair lures.

With that being said; I have a great time; get to bs with friends and other fishermen and learn new techniques. Sometimes you get lucky and catch some nice fish; or maybe you know a spot that always catch fish. So what? You still have to catch them on tourny day in the required time. Its not ever easy, if it was, all 217 people who fished on Saturday would have caught fish...as it was, only 100 caught fish.

I love that the money goes to great causes.

I don't need or want a trophy just for showing up. I want a trophy for winning it.

I love this format...makes me want to work harder for the next one.
Just my 02 for what its worth from a recreational fisherman.

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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by MrTopWater » Mon May 16, 2016 1:07 pm

This is way to good not to chime in.
First of all you can not please all people all the time, with that being said it is a Charity Event. We are here to raise money for Charity.
I fished my first classic in 09, and every year since. Back then I could not even keep a fish on a measuring board. As time went on I continued to improve my skills from a kayak. And every year my goal was to try and add my name to that top ten list that is put out on this site. I am old man in my late 40s who's an average fisherman at best. Mostly fish weekends, but what I do is put forth the effort to learn new areas, baits, patterns and whatever it takes to improve. I'm proud to compete against every other angler that chooses to fish this event. Heck I have even met my goal of making that top ten a few times and have been up on stage 3 times. The format is perfect and there are categories for everyone, just set a goal and try to achieve it and learn from it. I have ventured out into the river to learn more about catching bulls from a yak and this year it not workout for me, but I am always willing to learn to improve.
But when its all said and done, its about raising money for the charities and great fellowship with friends and Family. I had a blast as always and hope that this event will be around for years so I can fish with the SENIORS one day. :smoke:
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by weimed » Mon May 16, 2016 1:12 pm

This thread is radioactive.

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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by flteng » Mon May 16, 2016 2:38 pm

KayakMike wrote:While this thread is somewhat interesting, nothing will be changed. This formula has worked for many years. It is tested and proven to be the most successful and premier event in kayak fishing for many years.

The Classic is not about determining the "best" angler at all. It is about having a high-quality event in a recreational format that is a charity benefit and enables the most folks to have a great time. Everyone who participates is a WINNER. The charities who benefit are WINNERS. The sponsors are WINNERS.

There are plenty of events for the "semi pro" or "avid" angler who wants or needs to be called the "best". That is not the purpose of the Classic. To the extent that some feel they are the best by winning the Classic since it has a large field, whatever.

"More divisions" is more work and a bigger pain to administer - while the discussion is fine, it seems to have failed to consider the registration and scoring implications for those that actually execute the event. More specialized categories, divisions, or special prizes make the complexity and time for scoring significantly higher. Same for more rules - just like life they lead to less freedom, more regulations, and less fun ;)

For example, this year the Fly Slam was brought back after several years of hiatus. It went away because of the significant extra scoring burden, lack of significant participation, and the idea that it was unfair to dedicate a large prize such as a kayak to a tiny minority, 10-20 folks out of 360. It came back because of the generosity of Black Fly and Diablo who would only participate as sponsors if there was a full Fly division, and Jessica and Jud's willingness to shoulder the additional work.

On the point of a "professional" category, or a "grand slam", if you want those who fish for a living, or are sponsored anglers, or just those who fish more than you so they know where the fish are to be separated, banned, or put in a "special" division, you obviously have not considered exactly how to draw the rules and enforce the boundaries, which in fact cannot really be enforced at all. It has always been a wise policy to not have rules you cannot enforce. Similarly, that is also why the Classic is structured so you can actually win more in a raffle than you do for a big fish. Rich prizes incentivize cheating - we keep the prizes moderate for a reason.

Let's not "fix" that which is not "broken".
What a storm this has started. Spoke my piece I will still participate next year no matter the rules. It's a good cause and a fun event. Just go into it know what it is and who are the players. Got an entire year to up the game.
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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by MudFlatsDan » Mon May 16, 2016 3:18 pm

I'm coming down on the side of Hoosier Paddler on this. First, 90% of us have more sense than to go kayak fishing amongst tankers, trawlers and tugboats -it's DANGEROUS. But for the daredevils who want to , have at it. But do we want this to be a fishing tournament or X Games for kayaks? My position is that allowing bull reds skews 50% of the top awards in the Classic. Not only the red category but the slam as well. It's next to impossible to pick up an extra 18" on a trout or flounder. Seems it would be simple enough to insert into rule 11 -"All fish in slam category must meet legal limits". That way the bravehearts can have the red tournament and give the rest of us a chance at an inshore slam. Nonetheless, It's a great tournament and a wonderful time.

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Re: New Classic catagory?

Post by KayakMike » Mon May 16, 2016 4:36 pm

Once again, with all due respect to HP (and Dan) I would like to add a few more cents worth :drunken:

Reds over slot were never excluded from this event. From its inception we discussed with FWC how we could allow reds that are overslot since the event is CPR, and as a result they are allowed - they are not allowed in any other event in the state that is not CPR. We have never had an overslot red die as far as we know from having an angler take a pic or do a legal measurement to determine the size of a fish (according to FWC). Furthermore even going to the side to take a safe and legal measurement before release is not a problem for these hearty fish unless you really do not know what you are doing. Someone who has no idea on how to care for a bull red likely does not have the chops to catch one from a kayak anyway.

Having a biggest redfish division for a 27" slot limit red would be silly IMO. Limiting the red to 27" in the slam division puts a premium on the trout and flounder, something that is already covered by the biggest trout and biggest flounder division. If the max is 27" then it is just a qualifier for a trout/flounder slam, and those that are better at catching big reds will feel biased against as related to those that catch trout or flounder well. As for the biggest red division if the max is 27" it becomes a race to see which of the many 27" reds caught gets checked in first - that's no fun either.

As HP said originally and currently we are an "inshore tournament" and have borders to keep anglers out of the jetties which is a safety factor. I grant that fishing in the river, whether for bull reds, trout, or flounder is more risky than fishing in a creek. However I do not see a way of banning access to the river completely, for any of the species, so singling out the red IMO just doesn't change the justification to limit "extreme" or "risky" behavior. If the river is too dangerous for a red then it is do dangerous for anything.

The argument that allowing big reds skews 50% of the top awards just doesn't hold any water, especially since the winner this year set the slam record in Guana on a SUP without a bull red. Looking at this year's results, reds over slot did occur in the slam and red divisions, but bull reds (which are usually 37+) accounted for only 5 spots out of 29 places.

There is no really "right" way to cap the size of a red (fro example 32"). The only way to actually eliminate the alleged "negative influence" of bull reds is to just take Reds out of the tournament all together and make it a flounder-trout event and ban all use of the river, which is likely not too popular either ;)

Given the # of people in the event is pretty consistent and most have fun, I don't really see any reason to change the rules. No matter how they are changed there will be various minorities that will be unhappy with whatever it is.

However, I commend all on this thread for their etiquette - this discussion is NOT radioactive nor am I trying to discourage it. JKF is a place where respectful opinion is welcome whether it is popular, agreed upon, or not, as long as your opinions are expressed nicely and in a way that does not offend or disrespect others.

While the above is my opinion, I am always more than open to consider anything - someone may have that great idea that strikes just the right balance and all of us together look at it and say "yeah, that's perfect!" - for me though I haven't seen it yet, but will continue to read and listen!

Respectfully, KayakMike
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